(click here to visit the 21 post and download the song)
Render unto Caesar... http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21574/kenneth-copeland-money
Forget the Disney day care (see 21 post and song linked thereto), what about a private Jet? Rusty, how many villages would that feed?
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13 comments:
i say that man is a "tool" and his jet is a "toy."
let me throw a bit a stink bomb in the fire.
in several earlier posts, people talk about loving others without having an agenda, in essence, without any purpose behind being loving.
i want to say that before i felt this way, i felt the opposite. That is, i had an agenda, and growing up in a small town, you are taught to be up front with your agenda, pound on that door and tell them that you want to pray for them and all of that.
This did not 'suck' me in, and frankly it made me very uncomfortable. This was hard for me to swallow, as just at that moment there were the hyperspiritual people around with the other viewpoint that if i'm comfortable then i am not being 'real' enough or being too complacent.
ok, sure, so now i'm either guilty for not being uncomfortable, or i'm really really doing something that i'm not confident in.
Well, i got passed that and then decided that i should love without agenda. Yeah, that's the ticket, i said to myself. I will love people and not care or push anything on them...i'll let the Spirit take care of that puppy.(unfortuntately what many people mean when they say love without agenda means to be nice to them and resolve to not talk about Jesus lest you make things uncomfortable, and if the Jesus topic comes up, well sure then i'll discuss it)
Ok, i've been sort of sarcastic as i've written this so far so bare with me.
I realized after i started this new theory that in my head to separate the so-called agenda, and to love others was impossible. this is because if i commit in my mind to not hope for them to accept Christ as a beginning of my relationship, then i inevitably will not discuss Him. And every time i think about it, i stop myself by reminding myself to not have an agenda.
But, i realized loving others IS the agenda, and i cannot separate His commission from that because if i do, then what i am offering is no longer real love, it is an imitation. I cannot be loving and 'stay out of their business' because He is in our business whether we believe it or not. Our believing does not make the truth any more or less true.
If i love a person, then i am committing to sharing the gospel with him/her, because love is the gospel.
Now perhaps, what many people really mean is that by not having an agenda, you are in essense not approaching people only to tell them that Jesus loves their stinky selves.
But you know, these days, i wonder if that is appropriate. I wonder if all of this, "lets not have an agenda" stuff is really fueled from our insecurities once again.
so, i don't know if this has turned into a good ol' ministry form discussion, but there it is. I don't know most of you personally and so hear me when i say none of this is directed at any person specifically, but how many people do you see saying something overtly Christian above a hushed volume in your local restaurant? Perhaps we need to resolve ourselves to being comfortable that we do have an agenda whether we like it or not.
I can honestly say that when i meet with others, i have an agenda. I do not feel bad about that anymore. Christ had an agenda when He came here; His disciples had an agenda. If you were to ask one of them to separate their purpose from their interactions with others, i doubt they would attempt a response.
as an end to the madness i've started, i do believe that the 'tactics' that some people use are not only poor but counterproductive. I will also say that a person who is trying to win over others for Jesus simply to add to the kingdom, is misguided and arrogant. The whole, saving other's souls concept makes me dry-heave. I want to share Jesus because it would drive me crazy with delight to see another person experience freedom, to have peace. The concept of Heaven only rarely enters my brain, except when i am alone.
if i haven't offended all of the viewers of this blog yet, just let me know. IF i don't post again within a week, it is because Seth or Josh voted me off the site.
You comments are interesting and, to some degree, tie back into Megan and Roland's comments. Let me note that you alluded to the toolishness of man's attempt to reach souls to "build the kingdom". I think this is why you see the mass marketing of the church, and the materialistic mahem that comes with it. People understand that, to increase their numbers, they must have the cool new toys. Cool new toys draw people. Drawing people means adding numbers. And the more numbers, the more people that are "saved," or "baptized," or whatevered. However, as per the Willow Creek link by Nicole (see the "21" post), THAT DOESN'T FREAKING WORK.
What if our agenda was not to add numbers, but to live the gospel out toward our neighbor? What if we existed to love God and love our neighbor (as our self, perhaps)? I tend to agree with comments made to me by Kyle and Rusty--this gospel is most genuinely experienced when acted out toward our neighbors. Right Megs?
So to tie all of this together--Agenda? Fine. So long as that agenda doesn't have anything to do with having the coolest new facility to draw people in who want nothing more than entertainment or easy salvation. So long as we don't think that God is behind a growing church, when it is growing because of our mass expenditures on _______. So long as we don't use money as a measuring stick for how successful our churches are (that is a business model, not a gospel model).
Agenda--share the gospel with (and by that I mean live it toward) others. And finally, render under to Caesar that which is Caesar's... and when you've paid Matthew, leave with him and follow me...
There is no evidence that any of these organizations have done anything wrong to date. Copeland has invited an IRS investigation which Grassley should have done from the beginning. The information could be obtained that way while keeping things confidential. When looking at the details that Grassley requested, it leaves me wondering what he else he had planned to do with the information.
overall, i think the words "agenda" and "plan" and "functions" have bad connotations when referencing religious activity. But, they do not have to be bad. With everything else, what we do with them determines their acceptability.
Also, i have a hard time talking about specific things like having too many tv's in a church and that stuff because (without defending this) there is no right answer to the question "How much stuff is too much stuff?"
Should every church, regardless of their numbers or resources, be only able to have one screen in their church, maybe two if they have a youth service? If a church is larger than another and they have a bit more stuff, is that inherently wrong?
Is there anything to be said about having a big youth event to draw in new youngsters? Is it not right to take them paint-balling or mini-golfing on the church's expenditures to somehow show that Christians can have fun too?
hmmm..
I am playing against the grain on these mainly to point out two things, and Seth i'll do this lawyer style:
1) It is the purpose behind what a church does with it's money that determines the value. A church may buy a jet, and they may say it is for ministry purposes, but what is in the hearts of those who bought it? Did they pray about it? My church doesn't have a jet, but then again we spend so much money supporting people who are in other countries that some might say we are being irresponsible because we do not have a building and that we are not doing enough to address the needs of our own body. ouch.(i do not hold this view by the way)
2) When we talk about material things and the form vs.function, we lose sight of the true problems. These (ie..exessive expenditures, grand or elaborate get-to-gethers, retreats to colorado snow,etc.. are only manifestations of greater problems such as fear, greed, and pride.
I'll also note that when rejecting these churches we speak against, we have the tendency sometimes to say, enough is enough, i'm not spending another dime and i'm not having any more scheduled activites! This of course also doesn't work and can lead to the trap of thinking you can't do anything right, which also stems from fear, etc..
I think a better question to tackle, since this one has been debated for ages is:
When part of the body does junk we don't agree with, what is the best thing to do? Do we denounce them as actually being part of the body? Do we hide it and pretend it doesn't go on and be satisfied with being able to say (with or without confidence) that MY church doesn't do any of those bad things?
And finally, is what we do in response driven by the desire to save face, or is it genuinely a reaction to somehow help another?
I don't know about Copeland.. honestly I think he needs to be robbed. Seriously... that wasn't a joke.
I just finished talking to a mozambican who is supported by a western church to CONVERT the masses and do their dirty work.
He receives 42 US dollars per month.
That's $1.35 a day!?!!?!
Minimum wage in Mozambique is $2.50!!
Are you telling me that a whole church is paying nearly half of the minimum wage of a third world country!!
Some one please explain this to me.
On the website of the above mentioned church they say they're "bringing the gospel to northern mozambique."
What is the gospel? A method of enslaving the poorest of poor through cheap outsourcing?
Are we for justice? Are we for peace? Or do we need more people to fill our churches no matter what the cost? Even if it means oppressing the very ones we care to love.
When did american culture become the justifier of all means and methods for being salt and light? It's time to chunk it out... cause the salts gone bad.
"You say, "Love is a temple, love is a higher law, love is temple, love is a higher law. You ask me to enter and then you make me crawl."
- U2
Yeah... you want to see some real gospel working itself out? Check out Rusty's blog-http://kujilana.blogspot.com/
If you don't connect with it, you ain't human.
Here. I'Il take the corner on random.
Most of our (the church's) preachers' wives are dying on the inside. Buy the big screens when everybody in the room is LIVING! Know Jesus and buy a yacht for all I care, but if you're in unity with Christ, you'll be so close to the poor, that they'll be wanting to pile in your yacht or at least be waiting for you at the shore.
When we offer Big Screens, are we offering Jesus? When we offer stoves, are we offering Jesus? Who are the "least of these," and is that who we are serving? I'd argue that Rusty knows them well. He has learned their language. Is a big screen the language of the poor fools in NWA? Some people wish it were so. TVs are easy, and LOVE is impossible. Find the Poor in SPirit, and you find your love.
Thanks for the intent.. However, I refuse to be named as the epitome of love manifest. Everyone's a hypocrite. I buy chicken feed from a company who pays unfair wages to their soy growers. You eat Taco Bell and McDonalds who refuse to pay their their tomato growers minimum wage... So our lives are intertwined in oppression and hypocrisy. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.. until you know the people that it affects. Alright.. enough of the depressing.
Let's speak of love... In my opinion it's a beautiful concoction of compassion and rage. Compassion to encounter and understand others in their UNIQUE position. And rage to desire change and hope for the betterment of that position. Sometimes the blend gets out of whack and we end of caring about the situation but not filled with enough anger to actually do something about it. Or we're pissed off about whatever the situation is but lack the time to empathize with the person who suffers. It's only when it comes together in a mystic dance do we really know love. Look at Jesus' life... he knew how to work em both.
Good comments Amber.
Why do Americans love to "raise awareness" over the situation in Darfur but seem blind to the plight of the millions of illegal immigrants living next door?
"What does the billboard say? Come and Play, Come and Play. Forget about yourselves, Forget about your suffering, Forget about your neighbor and just buy....just buy...just buy. Anger is a gift!"
-Rage against the machine
Anger is a gift. A right rudder to guide the anger is yet a better one.
Rusty, I would like to think that you have a better opportunity to be near to the poor.
I've actually been thinking a lot about how anger comes into play here, and my issue is pride. Pride has no place with love. So how do you walk with passion toward a cause and remain in the humility of Christ? What is Holy Anger? Am I even capable of that?
“Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are.”
-Augustine of Hippo
All of the Copeland publicity revolves around Senator Grassley's investigation of 6 major Word of Faith ministries. I am not a supporter or follower of this denomination, but I support Copeland in his fight against Grassley. Grassley could have obtained all the information through an IRS investigation, which Copeland himself invited. The information would then be required to be kept confidential. Is this why Grassley didn't follow typical protocol?
In the wake of last week's latest mudslinging by Grassley with the nepotism attack on Copeland, it is more obvious than ever to me that this needs to come to an end. It's time for Grassley to come forward and admit he went about the wrong way of handling this. Copeland and his supporters are not backing down, and I think this should end before an unnecessary precedent gets set.
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